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Originally posted to Comics on Mon May 05, 2014 at 06:50 AM PDT.

Also republished by Daily Kos.

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Comment Preferences

  •  Progress on this has been so slow (12+ / 0-)

    Revenge is such a potent force in our society--look how much money it brings in for movies based on it.

    Good one, Tom! McGruff never looked so good!

    We have it within our power to make the world over again ~ Thomas Paine

    by occupystephanie on Mon May 05, 2014 at 06:57:28 AM PDT

    •  I dunno... (4+ / 0-)

      I'm worried Tom Tomorrow is about to get a letter from Briefs the Lawyer Dog.

      Early to rise and early to bed Makes a man healthy, wealthy, and dead. --Not Benjamin Franklin

      by Boundegar on Mon May 05, 2014 at 10:03:41 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I have never understood why the death penalty is (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      laurak, Amycat, Calamity Jean, enufenuf

      administered with such stress.  As a lover of big dogs, when the dogs were old and dying and in pain, I have tearfully held them while the vet found the vein. The dogs never seemed to suffer - rather they relaxed in my arms, and went away in just a few seconds.  Most recently, our female 12.5 year old rhodesian ridgeback with painful bone cancer actually licked the vets face, as he gently assured her that her pain was going away.  
      Why can't the same drug be injected in humans who have been found guilty of crimes so serious as to deserve death?

      •  Human kindness (0+ / 0-)

        Shouldn't the question be, why in hell do we bother to be kind to someone who has given up any semblance of kindness to others.  Shoot the bastar ;!  Maybe even a couple of times.  

        •  why we shouldn't descend to the level of the basta (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Dragontech64, Calamity Jean, IQTech42

          Why not torture him for days, show that we can be as evil as he was?  

          Killing to demonstrate how evil killing is makes a lot of a sadist, to a murderer.  

          But in fact, those nations and states with the  most executions (or at all) also have the highest murder rates.

          When the state kills, it teaches that for the right reasons, killing is justified.  Thou Shalt Not Kill.....unless you think you have good reason.    

          The logic is the same, whether for a  an individual murderer or the state.   The state is actually more guilty than the individual it kills, because it is supposed to defend the basic values, including the sacred prohibition against killing.

          Those who want revenge are the enemies of the just society, which refuses to  descend to the base level of the killer.    

          And executions, which take on the aspect of torture, are more than a rough form of justice; they are part of the same sickness which brings people to violence.

          Violence begets violence.  

          •  There is also the problem with racial bias (0+ / 0-)

            Look at who is more likely to be convicted and given the death penalty - the poor and minorities.

            Look up the case of Cameron Todd Willingham. His conviction and eventual execution were driven by his appearance, past history and junk science that has since proven the fire was an accident, not arson.

            Yet Rick Perry still defends the execution saying "He was a wife beater."

            Cameron Todd Willingham

        •  Sick pricks like you (0+ / 0-)

          ARE the problem.
          An eye-for-eye and tooth-for-tooth would lead to a world of "the blind and toothless."
          How about trying to raise your intelligence to a human level, and find solutions that are better than the animals?

        •  I had a student once who firmly believed... (0+ / 0-)

          ...that capital punishment was wrong, but that torture was not only acceptable, but necessary, as a substitute.
          I don't remember her logic path, but it had a certain bizarre internal consistency.
          I don't recall her name, nor her political party (if any) either -- but I do remember feeling a twinge of conflict at the thought that I might be getting her into an elite enough law school that she could wind up in a position of some power...

        •  Well said (0+ / 0-)

          Finally someone else who feels the same as I do. Just kill the bastards and be done with it.

      •  I think part of the problem is that the companies (0+ / 0-)

        that make the drugs for humane deaths for animals will not sell them to be used for executing humans.

        Libertarianism, n: A political philosophy some people embrace after the roads have been paved. (Stolen from Kurt Weldon)

        by lineatus on Mon May 05, 2014 at 08:39:00 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Agreed... (0+ / 0-)

        Cyanide kills within seconds. There are deadly-poisonous snakes whose venom does the same. Veterinary euthanasia drugs, as deh55 says, are also quick and humane. Even a gunshot to the back of the head is quicker and kinder than the current drugs, electric chairs, etc. used by those states which have the death penalty.

        The main reason we're using the current "drug cocktail" for executions is that, when there are witnesses, the witnesses get freaked out if the dying involves convulsing or frothing at the mouth, so they use all sorts of things to suppress the normal involuntary reflexes, which also mess with the effectiveness of the drugs which do the actual killing. I say, better a few seconds convulsing than 40 minutes of slow suffocation from ineffective drugs.

        There are plenty of issues with capital punishment, but claiming we have to stop it because they can't kill the condemned quickly enough to not be "cruel and unusual punishment" is b#llsh!t.

      •  I don't think the drug they use to put dogs (0+ / 0-)

        to sleep works the same in humans.

        •  Yes, it seems to work the same. (0+ / 0-)

          That is the drug that MO used to execute one of the one-a-month folks we have been putting to death for the last few months.

          I'm very conflicted about the death penalty, but I do think that Heroin would be a great answer to which drug to use.

      •  Criminals don't deserve it (0+ / 0-)

        Animals deserve a humane death. Criminals sentenced to death deserve as much pain as its possible to give them.

    •  Death penalty. (0+ / 0-)

      I suspect we would have less trouble with crime if we would take decent care of our poor to begin with:  maybe choice of depending on competence of poor person:  big community service employment program run like horse racing industry runs claiming races so any employer looking for minimum wage workers could take their pick of the community service employment program participants, don't worry about participants who can do low level work for non-profits but won't work out for any for-profit firms, document what is wrong and get on disability pension anyone who can't function on a job even at a non-profit.  Also the poor need low-income housing the kind that is 1/3 of income whatever income is, and Medicaid including mental health care.  Many of the poor have post traumatic stress disorder do to the terrible way they are treated as children.

    •  electing democrats (0+ / 0-)

      Why are you (Tom Tomorrow) proposing this?
      Who do you work for (fox news) it is great to make a cartoon about something YOU care about "The Death Penalty"!
      Why not make a cartoon about REPUBLICANS only voting for Billionaires?
      A cartoon about BILLIONAIRES being ANTI UNION?
      A cartoon about BILLIONAIRES trying to give "Social Security Fund" to WALL STREET?
      A cartoon about "Wealth Inequality"?
      A cartoon about "Fox News"?
      A cartoon about "Rupert Murdoch"?
      So just shoot DEMOCRATS in the foot?
      About "The Death Penalty"?
      We face Anti unionism, the repeal of the MINIMUM WAGE!
      Repeal of Obamacare, No fair wages for women!
      Separation of church and state!
      And all you are worried about is "Capital Punishment"?
      Wow how much is FOX NEWS paying you?

    •  tom tomorrow1 (0+ / 0-)

      Why are you (Tom Tomorrow) proposing this?
      Who do you work for (fox news) it is great to make a cartoon about something YOU care about "The Death Penalty"!
      Why not make a cartoon about REPUBLICANS only voting for Billionaires?
      A cartoon about BILLIONAIRES being ANTI UNION?
      A cartoon about BILLIONAIRES trying to give "Social Security Fund" to WALL STREET?
      A cartoon about "Wealth Inequality"?
      A cartoon about "Fox News"?
      A cartoon about "Rupert Murdoch"?
      So just shoot DEMOCRATS in the foot?
      About "The Death Penalty"?
      We face Anti unionism, the repeal of the MINIMUM WAGE!
      Repeal of Obamacare, No fair wages for women!
      Separation of church and state!
      And all you are worried about is "Capital Punishment"?
      Wow how much is FOX NEWS paying you?

  •  According to Republicans.... (20+ / 0-)

    The fact that the executed man died slowly and in agony is in fact better, because of the suffering he created--you know, justice.

    Never mind that Oklahoma did to him what he did to the girl.

    See, murder isn't always wrong--it's the order in which murder occurs that matters--you murder first, I get to murder you, I got a pass.

    Also, if the death penalty is a deterrent, how come states with no death penalty have lower capital crime rates?

    Golly gosh, to be a Republican--logic and reason figure in nothing, so one can never be wrong.


    by Johnny Wendell on Mon May 05, 2014 at 07:05:57 AM PDT

    •  That would be the Right (9+ / 0-)

      cherry-picking the Constitution again, rather like many also treat the Bible.

      They only believe the bits they want to believe, but by God everybody better believe them!

      The inconvenient bits .... Nah, that's not what the Framers meant at all.

      I hope that the quality of debate will improve,
      but I fear we will remain Democrats.

      Who is twigg?

      by twigg on Mon May 05, 2014 at 07:12:42 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Suffering by the Executed = Justice? (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      JeffW, penelope pnortney

      No that's vengeance. And it speaks to an un-American view.

      "A famous person once said, 'You can fool some of the people some of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time.' But as I once said, "If you don't teach them to read, you can fool them whenever you like." – Max Headroom

      by midnight lurker on Mon May 05, 2014 at 09:22:39 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Doesn't prove it's not a deterrent... (0+ / 0-)

      ...because the murder (& other hy-anus crimes) rates could always be even worse if those states didn't have capital punishment.
      And I'm only partially kidding about this.
      What would be necessary to get some indication of relative efficacy would be to the murder rates in states that underwent a change in their capital punishment regimes, such as Illinois, from pre-moratorium to post-.
      Anyone happen to know any of those stats?

    •  The death penalty isn't a deterrent (0+ / 0-)

      because very few willful murderers intend to get caught.

      And the reason states with the death penalty tend to have higher murder rates is because they tend to be  places with a more violent culture.    

      Mexico and Norway both lack capital punishment.   Nigeria and Japan both retain it.    Japan and Norway are two of the safest countries in the world (excluding tsunamis and polar bears) while Nigeria and Mexico are two of the most violent.  

      The question is whether some crimes are so heinous that the ultimate penalty must be paid; the whole deterrent thing is a red herring.    Frankly I don't miss Ted Bundy (who twice escaped from custody)  or John W. Gacy at all.

    •  tom tomorrow (0+ / 0-)

      Why are you (Tom Tomorrow) proposing this?
      Who do you work for (fox news) it is great to make a cartoon about something YOU care about "The Death Penalty"!
      Why not make a cartoon about REPUBLICANS only voting for Billionaires?
      A cartoon about BILLIONAIRES being ANTI UNION?
      A cartoon about BILLIONAIRES trying to give "Social Security Fund" to WALL STREET?
      A cartoon about "Wealth Inequality"?
      A cartoon about "Fox News"?
      A cartoon about "Rupert Murdoch"?
      So just shoot DEMOCRATS in the foot?
      About "The Death Penalty"?
      We face Anti unionism, the repeal of the MINIMUM WAGE!
      Repeal of Obamacare, No fair wages for women!
      Separation of church and state!
      And all you are worried about is "Capital Punishment"?
      Wow how much is FOX NEWS paying you?

    •  capital punishment (0+ / 0-)

      first we have to win elections.
      We have to point out why AYN RAND is a stupid skank!
      Why Billionaires are getting tax breaks!
      Why the Republicans are ANTI UNION!
      Then worry (AFTER WE WON) about these "WEDGE ISSUES" the REPUBLICANS USE!

  •  I never thought I'd say this, (19+ / 0-)

    but this untested lethal injection crap makes getting a bullet to the head seem positively appealing in comparison. Which implies Mafia executions may actually be less of a cruel and unusual punishment than this.

    Yep. Shining city on the hill, last, best hope of mankind, a beacon of light in the world indeed.

    Iuris praecepta sunt haec: Honeste vivere, alterum non laedere, suum cuique tribuere. - Ulpian, Digestae 1, 3

    by Dauphin on Mon May 05, 2014 at 07:07:25 AM PDT

    •  That is an excellent comparison... (4+ / 0-)

      ...In fact, most Mafia executions are quick and the executed doesn't even see it coming.

      Don't tell me what you believe, show me what you do and I will tell you what you believe.

      by Meteor Blades on Mon May 05, 2014 at 08:27:29 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I have actually been wondering (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Dauphin, belinda ridgewood

      why somebody didn't shoot the poor suffering bastard within the first few minutes.

      •  It would be illegal (4+ / 0-)

        The state sanctioned method of capital punishment is lethal injection.  If one of the guards were to shoot him, that would be murder, even if it were done by someone in charge of killing him by the approved method.

        b.t.w. Prison guards don't normally carry guns because of the risk that the prisoners might attack the guard to get the weapon.

        I was wondering something different.  Why are they having such a hard time making this work?  I hear from the Drug Warriors that opiod pain killers are so dangerous that the state has to look at what prescriptions I have filled to prevent people dying from overdoses.  If the pain killers are that dangerous, why not use them?  Morphine can be administered intramuscular or subcutaneous, with minimal training.

        That would make sense, but only, of course, if you are 100% confident that your justice system never make mistakes.

        If it were you who was falsely convicted because of error or mafeasance, would you rather die or live in the hope that you might get at least a portion of your life back?

        •  Good point in re: guns. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          belinda ridgewood

          Illegal or not, though, under that precise set of circumstances I'm having a hard time seeing why it wouldn't have been the moral thing to do something that would kill him faster than that horrorshow.

          The fallibility of the justice system is the primary reason I don't support the death penalty in practice.  But as to what I would want if I were the one convicted, I'm not sure that's relevant.  I feel sure I would want to stay alive whether or not I were guilty -- or, you know, it's always possible I might want to die whether or not I were innocent.

          •  morals vs law (4+ / 0-)

            Yes, but are you willing to risk receiving prison time or even your own execution (by what you know to be a grisly method) in order to grant the mercy that you consider moral?  After all, the law is imposed on us because we can't all agree what is moral.

            Assisting someone in suicide is illegal in many states, yet I consider it moral.  Throwing somebody in jail for smoking pot is the law in most places, yet I consider that immoral.

            We all live with a constant choice of whether to follow what is moral or follow the law.

            The thought experiment about the wrongful conviction is one that anyone who supports the death penalty should envision for themselves.  

            You know that there will eventually be an incorrect conviction.  If you support the death penalty, do you accept that your unjust execution is better than a chance of exoneration? Nobody who can't honestly say "Yes, I would accept to be killed unjustly so that we can have the death penalty" has any justification to support it.

            •  Thanks, occasionalobserver, (0+ / 0-)

              for your thoughtful first comments. I love your last paragraph here.

              Welcome to Daily Kos. If you have any questions about how to participate here, you can learn more at the Community Guidelines, the Knowledge Base, and the Site Resource Diaries. Diaries labeled "Open Thread" are also great places to ask. We look forward to your contributions.
              ~~ from the DK Partners & Mentors Team.

              Shop Kos Katalogue ❧ Help Okiciyap at Cheyenne River reservation.

              by belinda ridgewood on Mon May 05, 2014 at 07:14:57 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  Having suffered a major heart attack (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Calamity Jean, Batya the Toon

              18 years ago, I can tell you that it is about the worst pain (and panic) you will ever feel. Before treatment started pushing the pain back, I was HOPING someone would just shoot me and end the pain.
              Better a fast bullet than a heart attack.

            •  ^^ This, YES ^^ . . . n/t (0+ / 0-)
            •  Do you feel that question should be asked (0+ / 0-)

              about every legal penalty? -- e.g., "If you support incarceration as a form of punishment for crime, would you agree that you should be wrongfully incarcerated if you were to be convicted of a crime you didn't commit?"

              •  You missed the point (0+ / 0-)

                We know that in any system, someone who is innocent will receive punishment incorrectly.  I know that I am at risk of being imprisoned for something that I did not do.  I can't think of a way to solve this problem without creating worse problems.  (If you can, tell us about it.)

                If we have no punishment at all, there is no incentive for people to follow the laws.  We hope to make the system as accurate as possible, and accept the risk of malfunction.

                Supposing yout daughter is the innocent person in this example.  By living in our society, she MUST take the risk of unjust punishment.  But we can make it possible to correct the error later.

                Choose this for your daughter:

                A. We should free her from prison when we discover that she is innocent.

                B. We should kill her immediately after the conviction.  When we discover that she is innocent, we put flowers on her tombstone.

                What kind of person can choose option B?

                •  I don't understand your insistence (0+ / 0-)

                  on making this personal.  I think it's counterproductive.

                  Do you think people are likely to give a different answer based on whether you ask about "an innocent person" or "you / your child"?  And if so, don't you think that different answer is likely to be less principled in the second case, if the person answering is being honest?

                  People who commit murder should face trial and imprisonment.  But if your daughter comes to you and says she just murdered someone and needs to flee the country, which is likelier -- that you'll turn her over to the police or that you'll help her pack a bag?  And if you murdered someone (for what you doubtless thought were good and sufficient reasons), would you turn yourself in or would you run?

                  Your initial question makes perfect sense if you leave out the personal aspect: knowing that people may be convicted unjustly, should we permit our justice system to perform irreversible punishments?  Obviously not, and it is (or ought to be) just as obvious regardless of who gets unjustly convicted.

  •  Good job Tom. (6+ / 0-)

    I hope that the quality of debate will improve,
    but I fear we will remain Democrats.

    Who is twigg?

    by twigg on Mon May 05, 2014 at 07:13:14 AM PDT

  •  And my state just continues its downward spiral (5+ / 0-)

    With the Tea Nut Republicans pushing as hard as they can to reach the bottom.

    The enthusiasm for this agonizing death on the local news sites is enough to make you throw up. People really enjoy fantasizing about killing other people.

    •  SOME "people," please. (0+ / 0-)

      Even in my fantasy life, I don't enjoy murder.
      I'm confident I'm not unique in this...
      And I'd bet a large dollar amount that both murder and rape fantasies correlate strongly with political-party affiliation.

  •  I thought the third panel would be about Wall St (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
  •  I've sent kids your age to the gas chamber (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Gentle Giant, JeffW, bartcopfan

    Didn't want to - felt I owed it to them.

    In loyalty to their kind, they cannot tolerate our minds. In loyalty to our kind, We cannot tolerate their obstruction.

    by mojave mike on Mon May 05, 2014 at 08:08:38 AM PDT

  •  Not mention that 4% of them are INNOCENT. /nt (7+ / 0-)

    Happy little moron, Lucky little man.
    I wish I was a moron, MY GOD, Perhaps I am!
    —Spike Milligan

    by polecat on Mon May 05, 2014 at 08:17:32 AM PDT

  •  McGruff isn't real?!! (7+ / 0-)

    How about that nice penguin with the Star Trek visor?

    I'm not always political, but when I am I vote Democratic. Stay Democratic, my friends. -The Most Interesting Man in the World

    by boran2 on Mon May 05, 2014 at 09:06:55 AM PDT

  •  Sure, kid, and I'm a real talking dog. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    JeffW, penelope pnortney


    "Non-violence is a powerful and just weapon which cuts without wounding and ennobles the man who wields it. It is a sword that heals." - Martin Luther King, Jr.

    by Gentle Giant on Mon May 05, 2014 at 09:12:55 AM PDT

  •  While I oppose the death penalty on many grounds, (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    I have wondered why it is so difficult to come up with a painless, humane (if that's even possible when you're talking about killing someone) method of execution if we feel we must execute. Why not a general anesthetic to put the prisoner under, then carbon monoxide? Why not just an opioid overdose administered gradually to suppress respiration and heart rate to zero? Patients die on the operating table from general anesthesia, so why not apply that?

    Republicans - A pathology, not a party.

    by storeysound on Mon May 05, 2014 at 02:13:53 PM PDT

  •  It wasn't untested drugs (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    laurak, wilywascal, lineatus, smartalek

    If you read the timeline prepared by the OK Director of Corrections, it's pretty clear that the problem with the Lockett murder wasn't untested drugs, it was that they never had IV access for an execution protocol of IV push drugs.  Much, much worse, is that they didn't realize they didn't have IV access, and pushed the drugs anyway.  You can't always get or maintain IV access, but you can always tell whether or not you currently have IV access, and you have to establish that you have IV access before you push IV drugs.

    The medical people involved eventually realized that they didn't have IV access, and the Director of Corrections ordered them to halt the execution, but the medical attendants then let Lockett die.  Couldn't kill him when that was their job, couldn't save him when that became their job.

    As a bottom line, the timeline makes several things very clear:
        1) the doctor in attendance is guilty of criminal malpractice
        2) OK didn't follow its own legally mandated protocol for executions
        3) even if OK fails to prosecute those responsible for murder, they can both be sued for 1) and 2), and the federal govt can prosecute for civil rights violations
        4) drug makers who were reluctant before to supply OK with the drugs needed for their protocol, have now been put on notice that supplying OK after this travesty is now supplying a customer with a track record of criminal misuse of their products.

    The states must be abolished.

    by gtomkins on Mon May 05, 2014 at 02:19:52 PM PDT

  •  Historically, (0+ / 0-)

    I understand where we came up with state-sponsored executions.  I just do not understand why we still have this rather antiquated system of punishment.  In this country, we already have studies and graphs and peer-reviewed papers on how racially biased our judicial system is when it comes to assigning the death penalty.

    Also, how does a just and fair society make sure that all the people they put on deathrow are actually guilty of the heinous crime for which they are convicted?  We are human and to err is human ergo, we make mistakes.  We can undo a life sentence; it is impossible to undo an execution of an innocent.

    Tell me again the logic behind the state telling people that killing people is bad by the state killing people?

  •  Good Analogy (0+ / 0-)

    Good Analogy

  •  Go back to the guillotine... (0+ / 0-)

    Quick, painless, and sure.

  •  Quit crying for murderer's (0+ / 0-)

    I'm sick of this bleeding heart for the bad guy bullshit. The guy was a convicted murderer. Where was the national outrage for his victim. He was sentenced to be executed for his crime. The execution was carried out successfully. The man is dead. Good ridents.  If he had killed one of my loved ones I would have enjoyed watching him suffer.

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